Sunday, February 20, 2011

The Sunday Comments ( 02 - 20 - 11 )

Kent ...
This show will be on in March. Rare Johnny Maestro footage found and included in this show.
Frank B.

More on this from Tom Cuddy ...
PBS to Broadcast 'MY MUSIC: ROCK, POP & DOO WOP'
PITTSBURGH, Feb. 17, 2011 / PRNewswire / -- TJL Productions announced today that PBS will broadcast MY MUSIC: ROCK, POP & DOO WOP during the March pledge period. Pop-rock legends Ronnie Spector (of The Ronettes) and Jon "Bowzer" Bauman (of Sha Na Na) team up to host a celebration of the best-loved songs from the '50s and '60s. Recorded in May, 2010, this all-new MY MUSIC concert event features emotion-packed performances from iconic American voices that helped define rock and roll's golden age.
This unforgettable evening of music showcases the enduring popularity of two of producer Phil Spector's most famous proteges. For the first time in four decades, Ronnie Spector is able to sing on TV the biggest hits from her days as the star of The Ronettes: "Be My Baby" and "Baby I Love You." History is also made when La La Brooks performs two girl group classics on which she originally sang lead vocals for The Crystals: "Da Doo Ron Ron" and "Then He Kissed Me." Other highlights from the '60s pop-rock era include Jay Black (of Jay & The Americans) delivering his show-stopping smash "Cara Mia" plus a rare appearance by Len Barry, who serves up his number one hit "1-2-3."
The special also offers a healthy dose of crowd-pleasing hits performed by vocal groups from the 1950s, including "Blue Moon" by The Marcels, "Yakety-Yak" and "Charlie Brown" performed by Carl Gardner's Coasters and a medley of The Platters' greatest hits sung by Sonny Turner including "Only You," "My Prayer" and "The Great Pretender."
"This show is also unique in that we've been able to acquire lost footage from archives around the world that hasn't been seen since it originally aired," said MY MUSIC creator and executive producer TJ Lubinsky. One such clip is an original performance by Johnny Maestro & The Crests, before Maestro formed The Brooklyn Bridge. "Johnny was an all-time legend of vocal group harmony," said Lubinsky. "After his recent passing, seeing him in his early days is a highly poignant and emotional moment."
The MY MUSIC series is dedicated to the preservation of American music and is produced exclusively for PBS by TJL Productions.
MY MUSIC: ROCK, POP AND DOO WOP premieres March 5, 2011 on PBS and airs throughout March; check local listings for stations and times.

And, while we're on the topic, keep checking your local PBS listings for "Airplay", the EXCELLENT documentary we've been telling you about these past two years that takes a look back at The History Of Rock And Roll Radio. (It'll be running in various parts of the country in February, March and April in an edited, one hour format ... folks who pledge to their local PBS Station will have the opportunity to pick up the full-length, uncut edition, featuring all that DIDN'T air during this special broadcast.) More details as they become available ... but with PBS, it's always best to rely on your LOCAL listings, and schedules are subject to change and programs air at different times in different cities. (kk)


Brand new! You must view this!
Our wonderful friend, Sergio Rodriguez (AKA "Boopkid") has created a fantastic video slideshow to honor our beloved Clay Cole, who passed away on December 18 last year.
It's called Remembering Clay Cole.

The slideshow has a bonus feature: following the photo images which define Clay's life and career, there is a film clip from Clay's 1961 motion picture "Twist Around The Clock" in which he sings "The Twist Is Here To Stay."
Sergio is truly a master when it comes to creating videos. His work has been viewed hundreds of thousands of times.
His video slideshow replaces the previous one that was on the Jersey Girls Sing website and adds a whole new dimension to the presentation of Clay's career.
Please visit Jersey Girls Sing and, to view Sergio's unbelievable video slideshow honoring Clay, click Remembering Clay Cole at the top of the page.
Note: Sergio's video slideshow is also on YouTube. You can find it easily by putting "Clay Cole" and "boopkid" in the search box. If you view it there you can leave a comment.

Wow. What a tragic loss. I saw them once ... at an 'appreciation' concert for Tom Donahue and Bobby Mitchell -- KYA Radio, San Francisco. They were spectacular in their short skirts and beehive hairdos. Ronnie, Estelle's sister, was such a great vocalist and "Be My Baby" remains one of the best singles in 'rock and roll' history.
The concert, held at the Cow Palace, a bit south of downtown San Francisco, had a solid lineup of talent: Chuck Berry, "Little" Stevie Wonder, The Beach Boys, Jan & Dean, The Righteous Brothers, April Stevens and Nino Tempo, and Dee Dee Sharp -- who was 'dating' Cassius Clay (aka "Muhammad Ali" for all you youngsters :) ) at the time and he chatted with Donahue on stage. Phil Spector -- decked out in a black tux and playing a red hollow body electric guitar, was the band leader. Sylvester "Sly" Stewart was in the band!
September 23, 1963 ... oh, what a night -- late 'September' back in '63!
One cute story about "Be My Baby." One afternoon -- I'd say it was probably in the summer of '69 -- Brian Wilson called me and asked me to come over to his Bel Air home. He had a beautiful early California "Mission" style home -- which had been built by Edgar Rice Burrows, creator of "Tarzan." Brian had a studio in what would have originally been a family room -- and the boys were in the midst of recording "Sunflower.' So, we would have most of our meetings in the living room.
A huge custom stained glass window adorned the west wall of the room, which faced the street. It was the same stained glass image that was used as the cover of their 1967 "Wild Honey" album, containing the hit single "Darlin.'" Before we got into our conversation, Brian puts "Be My Baby" on the stereo and proceeds to play it, then plays it again, and again and again and again. "Listen to it, Fred. Doesn't it sound great! BW was so excited that each time he played it, he'd crank up the volume more and more! it was great seeing his enthusiasm for the single -- and Spector's 'wall of sound.'
I know that there are millions of rock and roll fans -- radio listeners, record buyers, who were equally thrilled listening to Ronnie, Estelle and Nedra. The passion and excitement in their vocals was truly magical and they brought equal excitement to their stage performances.
RIP, Estelle. You deserve a good rest. It's sad that "Be My Baby" was the biggest triumph of the group's -- and Estelle's -- life. Follow-up singles never did anywhere near as well as that first hit from the fall of '63. Estelle suffered with mental illness, cancer, and was even homeless for a time. But we are all blessed by the legacy of her music -- her flair for fashion -- and her determination to fight on.
Fred Vail
Treasure Isle Recorders, Inc.
"Music City, USA"

Kent ...
Click to check out Elvis' Concert.
Didn't you tell me Elvis was dead.?
Frank B.
Hi Kent & Frannie,
Wanted to wish you both a Happy Thanksgiving, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year ... and thanks for doing what you do with FH. I thought I saw something a week or two ago that someone wrote in and said he did some rock n roll crosswords ... is that right? If so, I'd love to get a copy of them (is it in a book?) ... 'cuz I do a lot of crosswords and that would be right up my alley. Can you let me know? Thanks.
FH Reader Mike Ogilvie has been putting together Rock And Roll Crossword Puzzles for a while now and has sent me some neat examples. (Frannie's a big crossword puzzle fan, too, so I know SHE would enjoy working these as well!) We've mentioned them a few times now but (so far anyway) they haven't been available to the oldies fans out there. Mike and I have been talking about putting something together that would allow the oldies fans to play these at home ... and we've had some discussions with Ron Smith as well. (Ron runs the awesome website.) We'll keep you posted as all of this develops ... but I believe there is a market for this so we might as well get in on the action, too! (lol)
Between all of us, we're thinking that Ron Smith's website might be the PERFECT place to post these since he already has a Trivia and Game Section on his site ... but, as always, we'll keep you posted as things move forward. (A good response from the oldies community just might help Mike get these puzzles published professionally in book form ... you just never know!) kk
UPDATE: A few months back we mentioned that one of our readers, Mike Ogilvie from Mississauga, Ontario Canada had put together a number of Rock Crossword Puzzles ... several of our readers wrote in wanting to know how they could get copies of these. Well, the wait is over!
While no official "publishing deal" has been finalized yet, you can start enjoying these games RIGHT NOW over at Ron Smith's website ... here's a link to the very first puzzle:
Kent ...
Don't we now have to call them ---- the Used Cars ?
Frank B.
The recently regrouped Buffalo Springfield is one of the headliners performing at Bonnaroo 2011, it was announced today.
The reformed 1960s group featuring original members Neil Young, Richie Furay, and Stephen Stills played together for the first time in over 40 years at Neil and Pegi Young’s Bridge School Benefit concert in California last October, and they sounded fantastic. Now the band is hitting the road, and will make a stop in Tennessee for the four-day Bonnaroo Music and Arts Festival, now in its tenth year.
Another highlight will be a rare joint appearance by Dr. John and The Original Meters recreating, in its entirety, the legendary 1974 album Desitively Bonnaroo, the source of the festival’s moniker. And speaking of Dr. John, he’ll perform in a Superjam with the Black Keys‘ Dan Auerbach.
Other festival performers include Widespread Panic, The Black Keys, My Morning Jacket and Lil’ Wayne, Eminem, Arcade Fire, String Cheese Incident, Robert Plant & Band of Joy, Mumford & Sons, The Strokes, The Decemberists, Alison Krauss & Union Station, Florence + the Machine, Girl Talk, Primus, Big Boi, Gregg Allman, Robyn, Deerhunter, Sleigh Bells, Amos Lee, Opeth, Del McCoury and the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Wanda Jackson, and The Walkmen.
For tickets visit the official festival website at
Meanwhile, Billy James of Glass Onyon Productions tells us about some brand new and upcoming releases by '60's favorite bands and artists like Electric Flag, Quicksilver Messenger Service, The Chocolate Watchband, Iron Butterfly, Captain Beyond and Dino Valenti. More information can be found here: Click here: New Releases!

Is John Lennon’s Guitar Going To Court?

Kent ...
Chicago court case.
Frank B.
This year's crop of American Idol contestants are off to Las Vegas to perform the music of The Beatles right from the Cirque du Soleil "Love" Stage at the Mirage Theater. You can catch it this week on Fox's American Idol reboot ... more fun than ever with new judges Steven Tyler and Jennifer Lopez. (And a revamped "Love" soundtrack CD has also recently been released, featuring two tracks not on the first CD!) kk
re: SMiLE:
>>>Here's a piece of Beach Boys news that fans have been waiting over four decades to hear ... in honor of their 50th Anniversary, The Beach Boys are FINALLY going to release their ill-fated "Smile" LP!!! (kk)
>>>Better late than never. (Frank B.)
>>>How cool will this be if it actually happens - the studio tapes of their rehearsals and recording are close to glorious - Actually, for those of us who have listened to studio tapes (fantasizing as if we were actually in the studio for those sessions), I hope the final product is not a let down. This would be truly great. (Phil)
In early January 1978, I was working for Los Angeles radio syndication firm, Watermark, as a writer on Casey Kasem's "American Top 40." I also moonlighted as an interviewer for the company's "Robert W. Morgan's Special of the Week" -- a 60-minute, exclusive profile on significant hitmakers of the day. I was charged with interviewing Dennis Wilson for an upcoming Beach Boys program, so I headed out to Brother Studios -- which he owned with his brother Carl -- in Santa Monica.
It was a 10:00 am appointment, which was uncharacteristically early for any rock star, but Dennis was at the top of his game then. He looked like he had just come from an early morning workout -- bright-eyed, fit -- now clean-shaven -- and bristling with energy. He was still riding a wave of critical acclaim for his lone solo album, "Pacific Ocean Blue," which had been released a few months earlier. And he was eager to continue work on a follow-up, the aborted "Bambu," and to make a "really good Beach Boys" album. He was especially high on some tunes that Carl had been writing. Our interview took place behind the board in the control room of the studio.
Counting myself among the most ardent of Beach Boys fans, left to my own purposes that day, I would have gone really deep into the band's history and the nooks and crannies of their rich catalog. But the show for which this interview was intended was targeting a general audience, and Dennis, to his great credit, addressed all the standard topics with great candor and enthusiasm. DW was far away the best interview subject in the band. No filters, no B.S., always truthful and emotionally unguarded.
Ultimately, we got around to the 10,000-pound gorilla that appeared in any Beach Boys story -- the aborted "Smile" project. Remember, up until this point, Brian Wilson always claimed in the rare interviews he submitted to that he had destroyed most of the "Smile" session tapes, particularly the mythic "Fire" tapes from the LP's intended "Elements Suite". When I mentioned to Dennis how tragic this was, he stopped the conversation and hollered, "Earl!," summoning Brother Studio's staff engineer, Earl Mankey into the studio. "Hey, Earl, cue up that tape we were listening to last night." Mankey went into an adjacent closet and grabbed a 10" reel of tape and slapped it on one of the two-tracks in the room. When he assured Dennis that it was good-to-go, Dennis hit play, sat back in his chair, and waited for my reaction.
What emerged from the control monitors was what would best be described as an "orchestrated cacophony." A conundrum to be sure, but such was the magic in the arrangement skills of Brian Wilson. Percussion and strings merged to conjure up images of a crackling, searing inferno -- as vivid as any film-maker could convey. The siren of an imaginary fire truck only punctuated what was already a fully-realized aural portrait. I knew that I was listening to the stuff of legend, and no doubt, my jaw was on the floor. I looked to Dennis for his reaction, and I could see that he was struggling to maintain a poker face, clearly reveling in my stupefied amazement.
When the music concluded and, after a moment to compose myself, I asked how this could be? Brian had destroyed the tapes. Dennis laughed and said, "You know Brian. He just says that so people drop the subject. He's never destroyed anything." Dennis went on to tell me that the "Smile" tapes had not been touched at all since 1971 when "Surf's Up" had been exhumed for the album of the same name. But the "Fire" tape had probably not been played since 1967 until the previous evening, and that we were the first to hear it in more than a decade.
You can imagine how desperately I wanted to hear more from this cache of unearthed tapes, but time was limited, so we concluded the interview and I headed to the office, stlil a bit in shock.
Several years later, when bootlegs of this legendary material started appearing, I was finally able to re-experience these sounds that had literally been seared into my brain. But nothing could ever top that morning in January '78 -- that very first listen with Dennis Wilson seated in front of me.
I'm thrilled at the prospect of the original "Smile" sessions finally being granted a legitimate release. But this is a promise that has been made countless times since 1967 -- the aborted original release; once again, as a condition of their Warner-Reprise deal, and when their catalog reverted to Capitol. This is definitely a "believe it when I see it" scenario, but fingers crossed. I'd love for the general public to hear one of Brian's masterworks in its original iteration.
GREAT story, Scott! I've got DOZENS of "Smile" bootleg sessions spread out over cassette tapes, CD's and LP's that I've accumulated over the past 40 years ... and, of course, Brian Wilson's own rendition, released a couple of years ago ... but a COMPLETE Beach Boys recording ... in pristine sound ... would truly be the coup de grace!!! We can only hope that THIS is the year we'll finally get to hear it all as it was originally intended. (Honestly, is that even a remote possibility? As fried as everybody was at the time ... and without Brian's direct involvement ... I don't know that we'll ever REALLY hear the "real deal" ... but this should be pretty close!) kk
Hi Kent!
I loved the Beatles Butcher Cover story ... reminds me that I have an original cover of the "soon-to-be-released" (but never was) SMiLE album by the Beach Boys. Amazing what you could get from being a loyal customer at a record store back in 1967!
Not meant to compete against the Mono edition or official Stereo mix, but Stereo!
Just pretend you're the drummer!!
Just pretend you're a Capitol Records engineer and didn't like The Beach Boys, after dealing with The Beatles, so you purposely mixed their vocals weird!! ...
Here's a rare take of my favorite song by them (Sail On Sailor, 2nd)! Always wanted to hear it in Stereo! Similar recording technique as used by Jan & Dean! Seems they
quit early and took Darlin' out to lunch during this recording, as the band played on!
Remember to tell your friends you heard it first ... here at KKFH!!!
John :)
Yep, it's Forgotten Hits Radio at its very best!!!

Speaking of which ...
I discovered the TOC last Summer with Scott Shannon. I enjoy the channel (hard for me not to say the word station), but it seems to me that since I have started listening, that he is playing the same 200 songs almost over and over in some sort of rotation.
True, he plays the forgotten 45's from listeners (records which are not forgotten by me but to the majority of this listeners), the cheesy easy listening song of the day at approximately 1:45 PM OKC time, and sometimes he will sneak a song in that he says will make the "oldies police" have a tantrum. Let them have a tantrum I say.
Whenever I hear anything extraordinary on the TOC during the daytime, I will e-mail Scott with a comment.
A few days ago, I started to think ... what person or persons have the final say-so as to what songs are played on the TOC? Does Scott Shannon have any input? I don't know. Anyway I always look forward to your website's comments.
I think Scott has a lot of input into what gets played ... he's regarded as the master programmer when it comes to this sort of stuff ... but that isn't to say that he still doesn't have people to answer to. This is particularly true of advertisers ... with nearly a hundred stations spread out all over the country (and streaming worldwide via the Internet), Shannon reaches more oldies listeners than just about everybody else combined! In our conversations, I truly believe that he wishes he could play more of the songs that don't conform to the same playlists as everybody else ... but he's also real big on research ... and the research that he sees says he's playing what MOST people most want to hear. And, when the ratings keep going up, it's hard to argue ... but I've never given up trying. ALL of our ongoing discussions have consisted of me prompting him to push the envelope just a little bit further ... and he has taken quite a few Forgotten Hits ideas and tried them out on the radio over the past few years, too ... "First 45's", "The Top 20 All-Time Favorite Songs Of Summer", "The True Oldies Channel / Forgotten Hits Weekend" "A-Side / B-Side Twin Spins" ... and he's featured a number of our "Original Versions suggestions for his VERY popular "Remakes" Weekends. (Still hasn't jumped onboard the "Today's Forgotten Hit" bandwagon 'tho!!! And I've been waiting over two years now for him to feature my "Walk, Don't Run" Weekend!!! lol) kk
>>>I truly believe Scott would LOVE to play more of these obscure hits than he does ... but let's face it, everybody has to answer to somebody ... and if you've listened to 94.7 much lately, you've also heard more and more '80's ... and even '90's music on the station. ("The True '80's Channel"???) kk

Well, this is the way I see and hear things. There is no attack against your Oldies!!! The commercial radio stations treat them just like they do with '80's and beyond tunes - limited. Personally, the '80's became somewhat a bore for me; music began to sound faker and faker. However, there were some great songs (in my opinion) from the '80's and beyond! And you claim no one is playing your Oldies, eh? Well, it was a nice experience to hear two young girls at a Borders Books store in
Mt. Laurel, NJ, and they not only sang and played Tonight You Belong To Me by Patience & Prudence, but also Sweet Pea by Tommy Roe. And, listen here, I was in a grocery store once and heard a young teen girl telling her little sister that she liked the song "Dizzy"! You just need to get out more often, K'! LOL!
Here's my weekly report on Oldies radio:
Friday evening, I tune to WVLT-FM (Vineland, NJ).
There I hear Jerry Blavat singing along to the songs he plays. I can do without his singing.
Sunday afternoon, I tune to WVLT-FM again, to find hours of Frank Sinatra.
Right after, I tune to WRDV-FM (Warminster, PA) and hear a lot of Doo-Wop I don't recognize. I tune in later, about 11:30PM, I hear Soul tunes I don't recognize. Some of which could stand a good DiscWasher.
Now I can see why those commercial stations that play the same 200 songs continue to excel!
Jersey John
We've talked about it many times before ... a lot of the kids HAVE picked up on the oldies ... we hear them all the time at birthday parties, pizza parlors, shopping malls, grocery stores, amusement parks, etc, etc, etc. We maintain that this is the next generation of oldies fans. Likewise, they've been introduced to these hits in movie soundtracks, television commercials, etc, etc, etc. Oldies radio should CATER to these new listeners rather than shut them out by playing to a specific demographic of the over 40 (or 50) crowd. There is NO reason to believe that these kids won't fall in love to much of the same music that WE did when we were that age. Sadly, it's an all too ignored demographic. (Watch for our upcoming series "What IS an Oldie" ... coming soon to a Forgotten Hits Website near you!!! lol) kk
Good Morning KK,
This is a good station. I love listening to it while on the computer. You will be saying
"O Dio Mio" when you hear some of these songs. Heard that one today by Annette. Brought back memories of Jr. High School. Have a good day!!!!!!!
Duke, meet Kent Kotal. Kent is a HUGE fan of Oldies Radio and "orchestrates" a wonderful WebSite
Kent ... The Duker has got you covered.
>>Just discovered your fantastic site. Been a lover of just the stuff you like – the rarely played Oldies. Over here in the UK The Suits Rule and were it not for Brian Matthew and ‘Sounds of the Sixties (BBC Radio 2 Saturdays 08.00 > 10.00) and listeners’ requests we’d never hear any rare stuff played. Thank you for such a super site. Good luck for the future. (Gerry Thorburn)
There you go, Kent.
Looks like the limited oldies is of international status.
Hi Kent
Just letting you know the first show went really well today, and if the re-runs are just as successful I'll be looking to make similar shows in the future
I'm sure I wouldn't have had as many listeners without your help though, so once again thank you and long live Forgotten Hits
Glad we could help! Additional details (and airings) can be found in the info below:
The show will run first on Saturday, Februray 19. at 12 noon Central, and then rerun at various times during the following week. This is to give as many people as possible the chance to hear this great music, wherever they are in the world
My pitch for the show is as follows:
Between them Bristol born Songwriters Roger Cook and Roger Greenaway have written more hits than anyone other than Paul McCartney. They have also produced, performed and released many more yet remain largely unknown to those outside the music industry. So for the uninitiated, I'll be showcasing some of their work in a new three hour special, 'IN THE SPOTLIGHT'. Next weekend on Nicky's Oldies. See broadcast schedule for more details.
I appreciate your help in getting the word out Kent, and will place a link back to Forgotten Hits on my station
Many thanks -
There are TONS of "themed show" ideas on our website ... and we've already done quite a few of them ... let us know if you need help putting something else together! (kk)
Surprise!! I will be the GUEST Announcer on "ALL NIGHT WITH JOEY REYNOLDS" on WNBC TV 4.2!!!!! The show will be aired this coming Monday night / Tuesday morning (February 21 / 22) at Midnight until 2 am in glorious HD on WNBC TV 4.2! (We taped the program last week ... the show was a whole lotta FUN and you’ll see my new hair-do!)
Joey and I go way back to our days at 11-7 Radio in New Jersey in the ‘70s, plus our time together at the old 66 WNNNBC-AM in the ‘80s. (Ain’t THAT a hoot?) I had also been on Joey’s former WOR-Radio show several times. Let's see if Joey calls me "Jay The Jock!"
The channel is called “NEW YORK NON-STOP” and is on Cablevision NY / NJ 109, Cablevision CT 118, Time Warner Cable 161, Comcast 248, Verizon FiOs 460, RCN 28, DTV-4.2 if you have a plain ordinary TV aerial (there’s an old word.)
All of the info about the channels on YOUR cable system, FiOS and other sources will be posted later today on MY WEBSITE …
Thanks for your total support in my endeavors.
Big Jay Sorensen

And, if you hurry, you can probably still catch part of this:

Number One Album Weekend

Kent ...

Once an hour they play three album cuts in a row. One from each decade, 60's - 70's - 80's. Click the link for a sample.
Frank B.


Really enjoyed today's FH. Haven't heard OKC's Henson Cargill's SKIP A ROPE in ages. As far as I know and can remember, he just had two records which made the local top 40 radio survey here, SKIP A ROPE and his followup, ROW, ROW, ROW, both, of course, on Monument. Here in OKC he opened up a restaurant, oddly enough called Henson's. It closed years ago.
Now then, and I don't know why I thought of this record when I saw the FH for today, but OKC's own Hoyt Axton in 1962 - 1963 wrote and recorded the original GREENBACK DOLLAR, which did quite well here in OKC. As you know also recorded and a national hit for the Kingston Trio.

I absolutely LOVED "Skip A Rope" when it came out back in late 1967 / early 1968. In fact, it went all the way to #7 here in Chi-Town (and topped Billboard's Country Singles Chart for five weeks, too!) kk

You did it again, Kent.
Once again you brought tears to my eyes. Tuesday's Forgotten Hit offering ("Do What You Wanna Do" by Five Flights Up) was a favorite of mine but once again I didn't remember the title or the artist and didn't remember I knew it until I heard it again. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Another cool side line to this is when you feature a song that I used to love, I write down the title and the artist so I can go to youtube after you take it down and listen to it whenever I want. But this is just the beginning. As I am sure you know, while you are listening to one song, off to the right of the youtube page is a list of suggestions. Among those suggestions I have found many more golden oldies I had totally forgotten about.
You Rule Kent!
(Then again, regarding Monday's choice ... I have never heard Leapy Lee - Little Arrows before ... and now that I have, I'm okay with that ... LOL)